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Rankk.org Topic - Ranking?

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Ranking?
Posted by Viz. dwelty 1334 from on 2007-08-03 09:41:39
I have a question... Why am I ranked 10th?
At the time of this post, I have 126 points, as do 4 other people. However, the other 4 people all got to 126 before I did (by 5 months). Souldn't I be ranked 15th since I reached that score after they did? That's the way I thought I remembered it working. I just was wondering if I remembered incorrectly, or if you changed it that way on purpose, or what.
And as long as I'm on the subject of ranking, I had in mind to suggest a different scheme, the same one they use in the sports world. If there are multiple people who are tied, they would all be given the same rank. So, for example, those of us with 126 points would all be ranked in 10th place, and the next guy after us would be ranked 15th since there are still 14 people ahead of him. There would be no rank 11, 12, 13, or 14. Just a thought.
Last edited on 2007-08-03 09:47:36 by Viz. dwelty
7 +votes | 1 −votes
Ranking?
Posted by Geb. quangntenemy 1252 from on 2007-08-03 09:43:47 Reply
I think that's because you have solved more challenges.
5 +votes | 1 −votes
quangntenemy.blogspot.com
Ranking?
Posted by Viz. dwelty 1334 from on 2007-08-03 09:47:05 Reply
But I have solved one more challenge than you and I'm still ranked behing you, because the challenges you have solved are worth more than the ones I have solved... As I understood things, the higher the level of the challenge solved, the more points it is worth, and then ranking is done based on points.

I guess it could be though, just seems kinda wierd.
Last edited on 2007-08-03 09:47:21 by Viz. dwelty
4 +votes | 1 −votes
- Re^2: Ranking?
  Posted by Geb. quangntenemy 1252 from on 2007-08-03 09:54:44 Reply
  Well points is the first criteria for ranking, yes. But when people have the same points then I think challenges should be the second criteria.
  5 +votes | 1 −votes
  quangntenemy.blogspot.com
Ranking?
Posted by Pha. Sphinx 6553 from on 2007-08-03 09:59:18 Reply
It was modified yesterday after I observed the following:

13 quangntenemy Vietnam 125 53 2007-08-01 23:45:46 2007-07-27
14 dwelty United States 125 56 2007-08-02 06:36:27 2007-05-24

You were rankked 14 when it should be 13 because you had 3 more challenges solved than quangntenemy. So Bio modified the sql to rankk by points, then solved, then solved date.

So you are rankked 10th because you have more number of solved than the others who have the same points as you.

As for your suggestion, if two members have the same points and number of solved, personally I feel it's fairer for the one who got there first to be rankked higher.
Last edited on 2007-08-03 10:07:10 by Pha. Sphinx
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Huuuuuuu
Ranking?
Posted by Viz. dwelty 1334 from on 2007-08-03 16:21:18 Reply
Ah, right... duh, that mkes sense... I'm a little slow today, not much sleep.
Anyway, the ranking display on the home page right under the pyramid never got updated. It still tells me I'm ranked 14th even though I'm listed as 10th on the ranking page.

Also, I don't think it's unfiar to have have people who are tied listed as having the same rank. Actually, I think it's more fair that way. If everyone registered at the same time then I'd agree, but if guy #1 registers in 2005 and takes 2 years and gets to the top, just a day before someone who registered in 2007... I think it would be kind of unfair to the guy who registered in 2007 to be a rank lower just because he wasn't aware of the site as early as the first guy. Even if he wasn't there first, he made it there a lot faster, and would have been there first if he had been aware of the site earlier.
Also, since the update, if people are tied in points you're using #of challenges solved to break the tie... I like that better than the scheme before, but I think you're doing it the wrong way... if people are tied in points, and one person has done fewer challenges than other people he's tied with, that means he's had to do harder challenges that are worth more in order to achieve the same point total. I think that if people are tied in points, the person who has done the least challenges should have the better rank. Just MHO... Whatever you decide to do, you're still doing a great job :)
Last edited on 2007-08-03 16:22:02 by Viz. dwelty
3 +votes | 1 −votes
- Re^2: Ranking?
  Posted by Pha. Sphinx 6553 from on 2007-08-04 00:43:09 Reply
  Anyway, the ranking display on the home page right under the pyramid never got updated. It still tells me I'm ranked 14th even though I'm listed as 10th on the ranking page.
  Yes, the two stats don't tally for now. We might revert to the previous ranking formula...
  Also, I don't think it's unfiar to have have people who are tied listed as having the same rank. Actually, I think it's more fair that way. If everyone registered at the same time then I'd agree, but if guy #1 registers in 2005 and takes 2 years and gets to the top, just a day before someone who registered in 2007... I think it would be kind of unfair to the guy who registered in 2007 to be a rank lower just because he wasn't aware of the site as early as the first guy. Even if he wasn't there first, he made it there a lot faster, and would have been there first if he had been aware of the site earlier.
  That makes sense. Will take it up with Bio tomorrow.
  if people are tied in points, and one person has done fewer challenges than other people he's tied with, that means he's had to do harder challenges that are worth more in order to achieve the same point total. I think that if people are tied in points, the person who has done the least challenges should have the better rank.
  Ah. That was our original logic behind the previous ranking formula. It kinda got lost in me when I saw yours and quangntenemy's stats two days ago. Yes, that sounds more logical - if two members are tied in points, the one with the fewer challenges should be ranked higher. So we'll probably revert to this.
  Last edited on 2007-08-04 09:26:19 by Pha. Sphinx
  2 +votes | 2 −votes
  Huuuuuuu
- - Re^3: Ranking?
    Posted by Geb. quangntenemy 1252 from on 2007-08-04 11:58:42 Reply
    I think level should be taken into consideration too. Pharaoh should be ranked higher than Vizier and so on no matter how many points they have. Maybe you will want to show the level on the ranking page.
    5 +votes | 0 −votes
    quangntenemy.blogspot.com
  - - Re^4: Ranking?
      Posted by Pha. Sphinx 6553 from on 2007-08-04 17:15:21 Reply
      In a way, the level is taken into consideration in the ranking, though perhaps not directly. If two members have the same points e.g.
      A 100 points, 50 solved
      B 100 points, 75 solved
      A is rankked higher since in order for him to achieve the same points as B but with 25 challenges fewer, he must have completed more of the higher level challenges.
      Last edited on 2007-08-04 17:15:33 by Pha. Sphinx
      2 +votes | 2 −votes
      Huuuuuuu
Ranking?
Posted by Viz. dwelty 1334 from on 2007-08-04 17:42:49 Reply
Heh, I see you went ahead with giving tied people the same rank as per my suggestion, but it didn't come out quite right, or at least, not as I intended to suggest...
For example, right now, these are the top 10 people and their ranks:
1 valsa
2 quangntenemy
3 Sphinx
4 lukatiks
4 sprjp2
4 shortbreak
5 Sapr0
6 coobb
7 blackopz
8 punkman
What I intended to suggest (and how it's done in the world of sports) is this:
1 valsa
2 quangntenemy
3 Sphinx
4 lukatiks
4 sprjp2
4 shortbreak
7 Sapr0
8 coobb
9 blackopz
10 punkman
The idea is that anyone who is tied deserves the same rank... all those in 4th place have exactly 3 people ahead of them, therefore the 4th place for each of them. But the guy just behind those in 4th has 6 people in front of him... with 6 people ahead of him, he only deserves a ranking of 7th. There would be no 5th or 6th place.
Last edited on 2007-08-04 17:50:47 by Viz. dwelty
3 +votes | 0 −votes
- Re^2: Ranking?
  Posted by Pha. HagbardCE 167 from on 2007-08-04 17:50:09 Reply
  I personally prefer a ranking system without any ties - but if there are going to be ties, I agree with dwelty's system. That gives you a much clearer idea of how well you're doing in comparison to others.
  5 +votes | 0 −votes
- - Re^3: Ranking?
    Posted by Pha. Sphinx 6553 from on 2007-08-04 18:01:25 Reply
    If there're no ties, then there's the problem of ranking those who have the same points: What should be the next criterion? Number of solved challenges, date of solved?
    2 +votes | 1 −votes
    Huuuuuuu
- Re^2: Ranking?
  Posted by Pha. Sphinx 6553 from on 2007-08-04 17:59:06 Reply
  I see what you mean...I'm just toying with this idea:
  Suppose there're slots for the various ranking positions 1, 2, 3, 4...and so forth. If 2 members are tied at position 1, they both go into slot 1. If 5 persons are tied at position 2, they go into slot 2. If there's only 1 person after all the 7 persons ahead of him, he's at slot 3.
  Does that make any sense?
  Last edited on 2007-08-04 17:59:31 by Pha. Sphinx
  2 +votes | 2 −votes
  Huuuuuuu
Ranking?
Posted by Viz. dwelty 1334 from on 2007-08-04 18:08:20 Reply
That sounds pretty much exactly like what I was suggesting, only it sounds like you are thinking of changing the visual representation of it...
EDIT: Except is isn't entirely clear if you are thinking of skiping ranks... for example, if there are 2 people in slot 1, would there still be a slot 2, or would the next slot be slot 3?... If you are going by my suggestion then the next slot would be slot 3. If not... well, I'll just say I don't like that idea. I think it doesn't give you a great idea of your overall position if you don't skip slots. END EDIT
As far as eliminating ties, IMHO the best way would be rank first by points (as is done now), then to break ties you'd rank by # of challenges completed (as is done now), and to break ties within that, rank by time since registration. The faster the better.
Of course, it's still possible (however unlikely) that you'll end up with a tie, in which case, I would just give up and count it as a tie, and give the people the same rank along the lines I suggested earlier.
Last edited on 2007-08-04 18:35:38 by Viz. dwelty
3 +votes | 0 −votes
- Re^2: Ranking?
  Posted by Pha. Sphinx 6553 from on 2007-08-04 18:13:26 Reply
  As far as eliminating ties, IMHO the best way would be rank first by points (as is done now), then to break ties you'd rank by # of challenges completed (as is done now), and to break ties within that, rank by time since registration. The faster the better.
  I think it's by and large taken care of with the changed ranking formula now ;)
  Edited: In response to your EDIT...
  Maybe we need to jump the slots, as suggested by you. I was thinking about this extreme example of 100 members. If 99 of them are in slot 1 (all of them have 150 points), then the 100th person who only has, say, 10 points, will go into slot 2. That kinda doesn't make sense.
  Last edited on 2007-08-05 12:15:58 by Pha. Sphinx
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  Huuuuuuu
Ranking?
Posted by Pha. HagbardCE 167 from on 2007-08-05 07:53:16 Reply
There is a bug in the current ranking script, which is there because a certain part has not been updated yet. After the first page, which ends with a member ranked at 44, the next page labels it's first member as 101. The rest of the rankings on that page seem to display correctly, but relative to this number as opposed to their absolute ranking in regards to all of the members. The same goes for all ranking pages except the first one, starting the numbering systems at 201, 301, 401, & 501.
5 +votes | 0 −votes
- Re^2: Ranking?
  Posted by Pha. Sphinx 6553 from on 2007-08-05 08:41:12 Reply
  That's another bug to fix ;) Thanks for posting!
  3 +votes | 1 −votes
  Huuuuuuu
Ranking?
Posted by Scr. Bio 605 from on 2007-08-05 12:05:40 Reply
DOnE..
user A has 200 points ranked 1
user B has 180 points ranked 2
user C has 180 points ranked 2
user D has 178 points ranked 4
The criteria is users with the same points will be ranked the same. Eg. user B and C
The rank of subsequent user D(below a group of users with same points) is the count of users above him.

Last edited on 2007-08-05 12:23:07 by Scr. Bio
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Art of Life .&
www.101zenstories.com
- Re^2: Ranking?
  Posted by Pha. deo 527 from on 2007-08-05 12:30:08 Reply
  Hey Bio,
  great work, much better now!
  But, IMHO, to sort the ones with the same points the preferred creiteria should be the number of solved problems, as solving all challenges should be incentived, instead of only the high levels.
  Another possible solution (not that good as the previous) is to sort by the guy who solved the challenge at high level, but this isn't that clear when looking at the ranking (at least not without adding the rank info to the ranking).
  HTH,
  4 +votes | 0 −votes
  nosleepforyou.blogspot.com
- - Re^3: Ranking?
    Posted by Pha. Sphinx 6553 from on 2007-08-05 13:23:05 Reply
    Just my thought on this:
    But, IMHO, to sort the ones with the same points the preferred creiteria should be the number of solved problems, as solving all challenges should be incentived, instead of only the high levels.
    I was thinking the same too, that when A and B have the same points, the one with the more challenges solved should be rankked higher. But this also has a problem. The member with fewer points are presumably higher on the pyramid hierachy and this should be reflected in the ranking.
    2 +votes | 2 −votes
    Huuuuuuu
  - Re^3: Ranking?
    Posted by Scr. Bio 605 from on 2007-08-05 13:24:57 Reply
    I understand what u meant. Current those with the same number of points are sorted according to "Last Solved" date.
    We have considered using number of solved problems as the the second sort criteria but later gave up idea because it is not comparable.
    Eg. user A solved 10 level 1 problems, while user B concentrated on higher level problems and sovled 2 level 6 problems. user A and B end up with same points. The effort to sovle 2 level 6 is likely to be higher than solving 10 level 1 problems. Should user 1 be rank higher than user B, we don't think so. So we stick to using "Last Solved" date as second sort criteria. Eventually user B should be able to solve level 1 or 2 problems easily and get a higher point than user A
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    Art of Life .&
    www.101zenstories.com

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