Newest: Sebmen4
Counted: 9829
Solved: killq 1/3
Posted: dozer
Topic: Bye Intruder

Rankk.org Topic - Types of challenge sites...

[ Reply | Hide sub posts | Back ]

Types of challenge sites...
Posted by Pha. Sphinx 6553 from on 2006-12-17 03:23:57
So far I've noted two types:
1) scatter
- you pick and choose the challenge you want to attempt
- mostly grouped by category e.g. Javascript, Crypto, Programming, etc
- sites include theblacksheep and hackquest
2) one-directional
- you solve the challenges sequentially
- random grouping of challenges
- sites include cyberarmy, mod-x, rankk
What is your preference?
And if you were to set up your own challenge site, would you go with Type 1 or Type 2?
I prefer the one-directional, because it gives you a (better) sense of where you are in the challenge's hierarchy. It has one downside though - you can't try the challenges above the current one you're solving.
9 +votes | 1 −votes
Huuuuuuu
Types of challenge sites...
Posted by Mer. crabbo_1 164 from on 2006-12-17 03:38:31 Reply
I am more partial to the scatter style....the main let down to one-directional is that when you are stuck on a particular level....you can do very little until you get the solution. Which can be quite demoralising. If a user can work at a few other challenges in the interim it can take their mind off the one they are stuck on...enough to help them by allowing them to look at the challenge in a different way.
9 +votes | 1 −votes
- Re^2: Types of challenge sites...
  Posted by Pha. Sphinx 6553 from on 2006-12-17 08:00:09 Reply
  Agree.
  The scatter type does have that nice advantage. You can make progress in the other challenges whilst continuing to work on the one you're stucked with. Sometimes, the knowledge and skills learned from solving the others help to give you ideas to solve that one.
  9 +votes | 1 −votes
  Huuuuuuu
Types of challenge sites...
Posted by Geb. shortbreak 1613 from on 2006-12-17 05:48:34 Reply
I like both but have a preference for the Type 2, also called "linear"
Yes, I wish for the other type when I am stuck ;)
There are other sites when I've wanted to set a particular challenge aside for a while < which can be very wize imo>
The linear sites usually have forums for the challengers of a certain level/rank to talk of challenges past. This can be *very* educational and there can be complete candor.
A site of mine ? Linear, with forums/rank and also an author's solution for those who passed.
9 +votes | 1 −votes
536f6d6574696d65732069646c652c6e6576657220626f7265642021
www.google.com
- Re^2: Types of challenge sites...
  Posted by Pha. Sphinx 6553 from on 2006-12-17 08:04:57 Reply
  I remember the old cyberarmy had one forum for each. You can post in the forum of your current level as well as those below it. It was quite nice because it was quite interesting to see what people in those forums were whinning about.
  8 +votes | 1 −votes
  Huuuuuuu
Types of challenge sites...
Posted by Viz. yai2k3 404 from on 2006-12-17 14:36:17 Reply
Heh; I was thinking about this very thing just the other day. There's another possibility -- a hybrid of the two, in which you need to solve X of Y challenges in order to go up a rank. Slyfx does this, for instance.
That said, I prefer 1), the flat hierarchy; it leaves the possibilities open. Having just one challenge presented to you can be annoying if you're having trouble with it; people may simply leave the site instead of persevering. With scatter-type sites, there's nearly always something to work on.
If I were to set up my own challenge site, I'd probably make it like blacksheep's -- two fora for each level. One to ask questions or make comments, and another to brag about how you solved it. :)
However -- and this was the bit I was thinking about -- I'd have two different types of points; you'd get some of each for solving a challenge. One type would be for ranking, and would show up on scoring lists. This is common to most sites.
The other, though, would be private to the player -- and be used to 'unlock' things -- say, useful references or interesting files or anonymous proxies... or, more interestingly, extra challenges worth even more points.
Anyone have any comments on that idea, or should I have kept it to myself? ;)
8 +votes | 1 −votes
596f 7520 6d75 7374 2062 6520 626f 7265 642e 203b 290a
- Re^2: Types of challenge sites...
  Posted by Pha. Sphinx 6553 from on 2006-12-17 20:15:19 Reply
  I suppose if I had enough challenge ideas for each category to start with, I might consider the flat hierarchy approach. But that wasn't the case, and the linear approach has the advantage that it allows you to combine the best of whatever challenge ideas you have. You can afford to be selective because you needn't have to come up with that many.
  I would tend to avoid allocating points for each challenge, because it's not easy to determine a challenge's difficulty - you probably need a rubric or some such to be able to guage the difficulty level consistently.
  Actually, if I were starting at point zero, I might have a grid sort of thing. The challenges are organised within the grid, perhaps according to difficulty level or category. You can choose whichever challenge you wish to solve, and each solved challenge is indicated by a highlighted cell with the points for it indicated.
  8 +votes | 1 −votes
  Huuuuuuu
- - Re^3: Types of challenge sites...
    Posted by Viz. yai2k3 404 from on 2006-12-17 22:46:53 Reply
    Hmm; that gives me another idea, one you might use for Rankk, as it's in keeping with the pyramid theme.
    Have all the challenges on the bottom layer of the pyramid accessible to the solver; in order to gain access to the challenges above, one must solve the two directly below it. It's a balance between flat and linear -- it provides a selection of challenges without giving the whole show away, so to speak.
    Hackquest has a solution of sorts for the points issue, incidentally -- the more people who solve a challenge, the fewer points it's worth. :)
    9 +votes | 1 −votes
    596f 7520 6d75 7374 2062 6520 626f 7265 642e 203b 290a
  - - Re^4: Types of challenge sites...
      Posted by Pha. Sphinx 6553 from on 2006-12-18 14:36:59 Reply
      Good one.
      But, given the current implementation, that would result in "gaps" in the hofs - members completing say a Level 5 challenge without finishing the ones below.
      I didn't know Hackquest had such points system. Cool indeed.
      
      7 +votes | 1 −votes
      Huuuuuuu
    - - Re^5: Types of challenge sites...
        Posted by Pha. Sapr0 1354 from on 2006-12-19 00:53:30 Reply
        well instead of just two challenges maybe something like 75%
        on the hof you can use different colors. or just don't display their names at all if they don't got 100%.
        this would also imply having an single hof for the entire row, basically an hof for each title instead of each challenge.
        7 +votes | 2 −votes
        Death Comes To All !!!
        www.theguardians.ro
Types of challenge sites...
Posted by Pha. Sapr0 1354 from on 2006-12-19 01:17:51 Reply
i personally prefer type 1.
either using a ranking system like HQ with each chall a fix nr of points lets say 10k which will get divided by the numbers of poeple solved by, thus dicreasing in value when more ppl solved it.
or like tbs where chall is worth 1 point and the hof simply lists who ever solved the most in a decreasing order.

From a noob points of view if you play a type 2 if you get stuck at lower levels you eventually drop and move on.
Best example would be me. Since the first time i played pyramid i was stuck at Soldier level and moved to HQ and when i had over like 40-50 challenges completed there i went back to pyr and move my way through Geb a lot easier. Now since i play Blacksheep as well and i have aprox 250 solved and i'm like place 13 out of 4k i got a great knowledge on how to solve several types of challenges and how to aproach them, thus i got to level 30 here.

The overall i think Type 1 is a more succesfull challenge site as HQ and TBS both got a big comunity and lots of forum activity. I find TBS more succesfull then HQ because in the begining TBS only had 50 challenges provided by the creators of the site and the rest of the challenges were sent by the players and now it reached to a 336 challenges and thats a LOT to keep you busy over a year easily :P

When creating a new site theres always the issue with lower levels challenges which are comonly easy for the big brainers as in the method is the same its just the message that's different (reffering to crypto's, easy stegs, js input boxes) and untill dificult challenges arives theres not much trill
also quoting "I prefer the one-directional, because it gives you a (better) sense of where you are in the challenge's hierarchy." thus said i think what everyone seeks out is the knowledge therefor the hof and the ranking is purely a method showing you obtained that knowledge to solve a certain challenge. Since there are different type of challenges you can't compare the knowledge of one to an other eg an JS with an Stegano. In Type 1 you can have an hof on each type of knowledge and therefor a truly rankup in that specific type of challenge eg you solved 8 out 10. For type 2 even if lets say JS is considered easier then Stegano if you haven't solved a lower challenge you can't move to the upper and try out an stegano. Who knows maybe someone might solve easier an picture since its easier to play with then understanding js code.

this is getting a rather long post. So type 1 in my opinion is better, but you need a lot of challenges for each type of challenge(at least 5-10) to have a starting point. Ranking is not that significant to me.
7 +votes | 1 −votes
Death Comes To All !!!
www.theguardians.ro
- Re^2: Types of challenge sites...
  Posted by Pha. Sphinx 6553 from on 2006-12-19 10:38:37 Reply
  Yes, TBS and HQ do have a substantial community base. But the old cyberarmy (which is Type 2) enjoyed a phenomenal success with over 50000 members.
  Which makes for an interesting case study.
  It reached its peak around 2001, way before other community based sites such as Friendster and Myspace came into the scene. People were mostly still using dial-ups then.
  Maybe it was timing. Maybe the rank insignia had magical appeal. Or maybe it was because it was run like a "military" outfit.
  There is another difference between Type 1 and 2. Type 2 has the plus point of being mysterious, because the challenges aren't categorised. As you move up the levels, you've no idea of what to expect, which can help create some suspense.
  6 +votes | 1 −votes
  Huuuuuuu
- - Re^3: Types of challenge sites...
    Posted by Pha. Sapr0 1354 from on 2006-12-19 16:16:39 Reply
    yeh probably becomes it was one the first sites out there, and having their military ranks and such and the atraction you learn how to hack if you solve this challenges ...
    eventually people learned how to code and challenge sites apear like mushrooms after the rain. Every one eventually wants an site of his own, or his got a few clever challenges up their sleave.
    to rise again such a big community you trully need something spectacular that will attrack both the noobs and the ellite
    9 +votes | 1 −votes
    Death Comes To All !!!
    www.theguardians.ro
  - - Re^4: Types of challenge sites...
      Posted by Pha. Sphinx 6553 from on 2006-12-19 16:58:52 Reply
      Like your "mushrooms after the rain" analogy.
      I guess you're right. Being the first (I think) out there, it enjoyed the novelty though of course it did have a set of great hacking games that were both fun and educational.
      7 +votes | 1 −votes
      Huuuuuuu
    - Re^4: Types of challenge sites...
      Posted by Geb. shortbreak 1613 from on 2006-12-19 19:39:34 Reply
      I've no doubt that, given a good site to begin with, it's the forum(s) that make "community".
      Challengers want discussion about, well, challenging and the forums/level seems an important part of this.
      
      This is the case even for those who do not post.
      9 +votes | 1 −votes
      536f6d6574696d65732069646c652c6e6576657220626f7265642021
      www.google.com

[ Reply | Hide sub posts | Back ]