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Rankk.org Topic - 200 challenges...

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200 challenges...
Posted by Pha. Sphinx 6553 from on 2008-05-13 10:40:06
This is a nice number to pause and think about how new challenges should be added.
Should we just add on the new ones to the existing pyramid, or should we build another one (much like pyramids from the different dynasties)?
On mIRC recently, Caesum suggested the idea of multiple pyramids based on categories i.e. one pyramid for each category (e.g. programming, puzzle, etc). That's an interesting idea, though it has some problems:
1) sometimes it's not so clear cut which category a challenge belongs to (quangntenemy's)
2) not enough challenge ideas or variations for some categories
3) can't have a challenge with multiple parts that involve different skills/categories
Still, it's a nice idea if you're thinking of starting a new challenge site :P (actually, Caesum's electrica is structured in this manner).
For Rankk, I'm toying with the idea of a second Pyramid. The idea came after reading rumburak's reply to my latest blog entry. rumburak suggested a number of pyramids, completing one leads you to another. But I doubt we want to go that route, because while it certainly has some niceties, it's not without issues. For instance, it's progressive and you can't access the next pyramid till you've completed the one you're at. At the beginning, Rankk's challenges were strictly progressive - you had to solve challenge 2 before you could attempt challenge 3. That proved unpopular and restrictive.
But we could modify the idea to have a second Pyramid. So the current one is known as Pyramid #1 - maybe a suitable name based on Egyptian Dynasties can be given to it later - and the next one is Pyramid #2.
Which means the number of challenges for Pyramid #1 will be frozen at 200. So if there are 9 challenges at Level 6, the number will remain unchanged "forever".
The rankkometer will still track the global challenge number. So if a new one is added, it will show 201. But this new challenge is accessible from Pyramid #2. Presumably, we'll have to start adding from Level 1, till we reach the minimum number of 9 challenges before adding challenges for Level 2, and so forth.
But there're issues to be resolved:
1) how should be ranking be modified?
2) how are the new ranks gained to be shown?
3) how should the stats page be modified so that the information from both pyramids is taken into account?
And many more.
Feel free to share you thoughts :)
Last edited on 2008-05-13 10:58:40 by Pha. Sphinx
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200 challenges...
Posted by Geb. mithmith 897 from on 2008-05-13 11:06:41 Reply
frankly speaking the idea doesnt seem attractive to me . Rankk is more interesting than many other sites because it is wat it is..
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200 challenges...
Posted by Viz. xmadx 51 from on 2008-05-14 17:18:58 Reply
Just another idea to throw into the pot. Rather than a 2nd pyramid, i've often wondered why the pyramid wasn't 3D, i.e. 4 sided square based pyramid. You could then keep the single pyramid and just split the 4 sides by suitable categories, rank etc... maybe you have to complete 3 sides to unlock the 4th, but the first three are all available instantly (at their bottom rungs) etc...
I appreciate that may take longer to code as you will need some way of seeing/selecting the other sides but thought it was worth mentioning.
Thanks again for the work gone into the site so far.
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- Re^2: 200 challenges...
  Posted by Pha. krueger 63 from on 2008-05-14 18:59:29 Reply
  I think thats just a great idea :)
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- Re^2: 200 challenges...
  Posted by Pha. Sphinx 6553 from on 2008-05-14 21:12:36 Reply
  Like have a rotate button to switch to another side...?
  But there would be too many categories/ranks to fit into the 4 sides...
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- - Re^3: 200 challenges...
    Posted by Viz. xmadx 51 from on 2008-05-15 00:52:34 Reply
    A rotate button would do, or some kind of flash graphic if you had time to make it fancy.
    You don't necessarily have to split it via rank/category etc.. it is just another way of adding more challenges whilst staying in line with the pyramid theme, but it saves adding a new pyramid and still makes 'sense'.
    I like the idea of a side that could be unlocked after so many points (across all other 3 sides) would be a good way of having a progressive part, but doesn't insist they solve all of those challenges.
    Rankings could easily stay as they are (you need to have solved so many challs at each level).
    With regard to how to split each side there are many ways of doing it. You could clump categories together (e.g. crypto/stego etc) perhaps keeping side 4 for special/mixed challenges; possibly make each side progressive (probably wouldnt be hugely popular); Potentially have a level specific to a category (i.e. bottom level=crypto, 2nd: exploits..).
    Anyway, enough brainstorming for now. Feel free to email/PM me if you want more brainstorming.
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200 challenges...
Posted by Geb. ZetaX 556 from on 2008-05-15 01:40:18 Reply
Another suggestion:
We could mix some ideas mentioned and do the following:
Some "essential" challenges are chosen (e.g. by Sphinx, votes or whatever). These are the ones required to get to the next level of the pyramid. After one has finished that level (=got enough "essential" ones to reach the next pyramid level), "additional" challenges of that level get available (e.g. to get points for the rankking).
New challenges are then always added to the "additional" ones (of the respective level). And if time comes (and Sphinx, votes or whatever agrees), some of them may be moved to get "essential" challenges (and in converse, some "essential" challengesmay loose that status by a similar process). We don't need to fix the exact number of "essential" challenges, we just should not let their number grow indefinitely.
Last edited on 2008-05-15 01:43:32 by Geb. ZetaX
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- Re^2: 200 challenges...
  Posted by Pha. Sphinx 6553 from on 2008-05-15 08:58:51 Reply
  But we can't reverse what's already achieved. Currently, to progress to Level 2, you solve any 9 challenges in Level 1. If these 9 don't fall under the essential ones, then we introduce inconsistency in the progression to the next level i.e. the new members affected by the change have to solve the 9 essential ones to clear Level 1, whereas the old members didn't have to.
  Perhaps we could have peripheral pyramids. So this current one is the main pyramid with the largest number of challenges and the greatest height (9 levels). The peripheral pyramids are smaller with heights of 6 or 7 levels. They are made up of mixed challenges like the main one. Solving the entire peripheral pyramid (as in reaching the highest level, not necesarily solving all its challenges) gets you a recognition medal or some such. The ranking formula remains unchanged - by overall points gained in all the pyramids, then by levels of the main pyramid. And the ranks remain, because the peripheral pyramids are not associated with ranks, but with medals.
  New challenges can still be added to the main pyramid to make it flexible.
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200 challenges...
Posted by Geb. ZetaX 556 from on 2008-05-15 10:19:00 Reply
Inconstences would happen, but they would not be very big: one who already reached level X may still hold that level, but for any new level to be reached, the "essential" challenges have to be done. By this, already done work is not lost. So a change harms no one (except if doing that problem at the moment of change, but that will be a rare case).
Or to completely avoid any harm, you could define the current problems as "essential" and all later ones as "additional" (with the option of getting "essential", but not too often).
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- Re^2: 200 challenges...
  Posted by Pha. Sphinx 6553 from on 2008-05-15 10:35:51 Reply
  Is the number of essential challenges tied to the number of cells on each level i.e. 9 for Level 1, 8 for Level 2, 7 for Level 3, and so forth?
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200 challenges...
Posted by Geb. ZetaX 556 from on 2008-05-15 11:28:47 Reply
No, just a somewhat limited number (to solve the problem of too many challenges frightening off new users). Something between 2*(9-level)+1 and 4*(9-level)+1 is what I had in mind, but this is just a rough bound.
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200 challenges...
Posted by Nob. Spoodle58 1648 from on 2008-05-17 19:59:22 Reply
Congrats Sphinx on getting 200 up, that's a huge amount, some of us will never have the time for all of them ;).
I think the pyramid should remain as is, maybe other challenges could be done in way like motm was done years back, you get a extra side ranking or bonus etc or maybe even putting the talents of top rankkers to use by trying to get gebs to solve so far unsolved proofs and puzzles etc, maybe for such difficult proofs have combined efforts, it would open the forum up more also, and maybe a gang of gebs can solve a world mystery and promote the site world wide.
It's a bit over the top sounding, but you never know, their are some really clever people using this site.
Last edited on 2008-05-17 20:00:15 by Nob. Spoodle58
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200 challenges...
Posted by Geb. deufeufeu 164 on 2008-05-17 23:51:41 Reply
yeah... let's get going after P=NP!
Maybe I'm a special case but doing proofs together with a bunch of people sounds too much like my job to really entertain me... (oh let me think again... this is actually my job! :P)
Last edited on 2008-05-17 23:52:35 by Geb. deufeufeu
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200 challenges...
Posted by Pha. skraeling 518 from on 2008-05-18 05:28:26 Reply
Nothing against a problemsolving guild. Though I prefer to have P=NP undecidable. ;)
Maybe this could be an idea how to keep the pyramid in its current state but yet incorporate some new ideas from time to time: add some elusive bonus challenges that appear when one has done some particular things (e. g. solved 90% of all Level 1 challenges, or all Lisp challenges, or similarly). I also like ZetaX's idea; I don't want to alienate anyone, but there are some challenges here that are significantly better than some other ones ;). But I wouldn't have a problem with an evergrowing pyramid either - there are programming languages that don't appear in rankk at all (at least in the parts I have seen), and some riddle types are pretty much underrepresented.
PS. @Sphinx: I've got 3-4 new ideas, by the way, but these have to ripen yet; please wait with the old #5, because I may have an appropriate first part for it soon. And thanks for making me finally learn some Java! (Though now I feel any other programming language would have done it better. But I have to learn Java for my exams anyway.)
-skraeling
Last edited on 2008-05-18 20:03:08 by Pha. skraeling
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200 challenges...
Posted by Pha. Sphinx 6553 from on 2008-05-24 20:23:30 Reply
Moving on...
We've decided to keep on adding till we hit 300 challenges. We want Rankk to be known as a mega challenge site, one where we expect people to spend a considerable time on.
Beyond 300, we'vet fused some of ideas from the discussion in this thread to implement something simple. Which is that challenges beyond 300 will only be accessible to those who have solved a certain number of challenges or have gained a certain number of points. These challenges will be listed in the same way as the first 300 challenges i.e. according to their levels.
In this way, we are able to keep the number of challenges to a comfortable number of 300 for most members, whilst allowing the elite members to continue scaling the Pyramid.
Many thanks to your feedback and comments above!
Last edited on 2008-05-25 12:01:26 by Pha. Sphinx
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200 challenges...
Posted by Geb. mithmith 897 from on 2008-05-24 20:52:13 Reply
yes ..what you could do is instead of suddenly adding 2-3 challenges per day, you can fix some period, say maybe ..
* add a challenge in 10 days (if any idea is available)
This will give time and space for paying attention to and solving the latest challenge.
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- Agree !
  Posted by Geb. shortbreak 1613 from on 2008-05-24 22:34:27 Reply
  New challenges should be released at some type of known pace.
  If one is really anxious to solve there are always some unsolved ones -eh ?
  *gets back to the 49, oh, 50 unsolved ones ;)
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200 challenges...
Posted by Geb. ZetaX 556 from on 2008-05-24 21:52:58 Reply
Only one per 10 days is not enough^^

Another question: is there any prefered format for sending you new levels¿
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- Re^2: 200 challenges...
  Posted by Pha. Sphinx 6553 from on 2008-05-24 22:04:13 Reply
  No standard format. But now that you mention it, maybe something along the line of:
  Title:
  Level:
  Description:
  Solution:
  Explanation: (for me to help with determining the challenge's difficulty as well as suggesting alternative titles).
  There's no need to make an html page of it.
  Send the idea to sphinx.rankk [at] gmail.com.
  Last edited on 2008-05-24 22:05:42 by Pha. Sphinx
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- - Re^3: 200 challenges...
    Posted by Geb. ZetaX 556 from on 2008-05-25 02:41:13 Reply
    You got mail
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  - - Re^4: 200 challenges...
      Posted by Pha. Sphinx 6553 from on 2008-05-25 09:58:00 Reply
      Cool! Replied :)
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Another Idea how to expand.
Posted by Mer. ASM 51 from on 2008-06-10 23:59:40 Reply
Hey, what you might want to do to increase the amount of Challanges is add a Temple. Were you Can't Pick the Challange. But you can 'walk' around. So lets say the first challange is that you'll have to access the Temple. And then you forexample have to beat a <WHATEVER> by answering his Questions. Then you can pick if you want to go left or right. If you go right, you get challange x if you go left you get challange y.

Is it understandable? =)

Ah, I hope I can be any help anytime.

Cheers,
Robin
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